Saturday, March 01, 2008
One More Time
A very good friend sent this over to me (I am protecting her from potential onslaught) and I found it to be incredibly enlightening. As much as I don't like labels and categories I thought it would be interesting to see which lane you fit in. That will make sense to you as soon as you watch the clip. Don't over analyze this, just from the parameters that this guy gives, which lane is most reflective of how you see yourself? It is not long at all, 5 mins or so. If you read this blog I am curious to know where you would put yourself, so don't be a chicken. http://www.marshillchurch.org/ This is not Rob Bell's church.
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13 comments:
I most identify with Lane 3
I am lane 3 for sure, but I can "get" lanes one and two. The best quote about lane 4 was "that's like taking a saw and cutting off the limb you're sitting on". That about defined, and explained, it for me.
I found this very enlightning as well.
i see myself in lane 4. but i personally have never wrestled with accepting jesus as God.
Cat,
I tried the link but I found more of a welcome page than a video link. I would like to step into the Bowling Alley of church thought or whatever it is they are addressing and choose my lane, but I can't find the video. Any more specific directions?
Thanks: )
Ash
Catrina, I had trouble hearing some of the definitions of lane 1 and 2. I would say I lean toward lane 3, probably not hook line and sinker, but leaning toward it.
Mrs. Ott
Ash, I don't know if it is a Brazil thing or not but it goes right to the sound byte when I click on it. It is called emerging church and it is question #2 if that helps you at all.
Mrs. ott, I found at certain times of the day my connection was better than others ,if it is a high traffic time of day it didn't work as well and took longer to upload. You could try again if you want to see if it works better.
I am not pigeon holing anyone, the definitions were brief and vague, so I am not locked into one lane per se. Just interested in seeing how others identify themselves. Thanks to everyone who has weighed in thus far.
Hey Cat.
I’m not sure which “lane” I fit into, mainly because I am not convinced that the four lanes described are accurate or even mutually exclusive. His fourth lane description was not very much like what I’ve encountered from those authors, especially brian mclaren and rob bell. His virgin birth example from Rob Bell was taken out of context and over simplified. And I’ve never heard any of the authors he mentioned question Jesus’ divinity or death on the cross for our sins. Mark Driscoll really needs to follow up an accusation like that with solid quoted examples, because that is a pretty serious charge to wage against a fellow christian.
I’ve heard brian mclaren and rob bell say things like Jesus’ death on the cross is about MORE than just getting people into heaven, but never less. I’ve heard them talk about the multi-dimensional aspects and implications of the cross, but not a denial or doubt about who Jesus is. I also have heard discussions concerning different interpretations of hell, but that is not so much an emergent thing, since that particular debate has been going on since the very early days of the church. Many of the early church fathers held to different interpretations of hell and I don’t think there is anything wrong with discussing that topic. There is a lot of discussion on the topic of homosexuality, but much of it is on how the church should respond to homosexuals, the causes, and combatting the hatred that seems to accompany the church’s denouncement of homosexuality.
Anyway, Mark Driscoll, the pastor in the video, has an extensive history of yelling, screaming, and name calling during his sermons. He was quite subdued in this video, but I have heard him speak many times before and have found him to be a habitual offender in exaggerating, taking quotes and ideas out of context, and demonizing those with whom he disagrees. So, I am reluctant to place myself in within one of his designated categories. I much prefer the 5 streams article that I posted over on my blog a few days ago. It’s a little more in depth and balanced.
Tia, that is why I said don't over think it. I don't know this guy, never even heard of him. I thought that he said that he was friends with some of the guys in lane 4 and had once been there himself. I do know that Rob Bell in Velvet Elvis said "what if Jesus had a biological father named Larry" or something similiar? Would it be a big deal and change who God is? (I am paraphrasing because I can't find my copy of the book.) The only point of his position on lane 4 is that they question some of the big evangelical mainstays. So do you question the big stuff as well or can you more relate to one of the other lanes. If you have preconceived ideas on this fella then I can see why you can't comment. It's like the Pearls, if you already have a notion in your head it is hard to see them in any other light.
I did read previously what you had posted about and did think it was balanced, and since I no nothing on this guy and his sound byte was short and concise I put him up.
Oh and I am still reading The Secret Message of Jesus and so far liking it. You have to remember that I also enjoyed Rob Bell so I read w/o a fine tooth comb, look for the good in all.
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Sorry for the horrible grammar and spelling, I am flying through a bunch of emails.
You don't have to like someone all the way around to quote him or post him. As you have with Ghandi, Pam Anderson, Mohammed and asundry of others, which I can appreciate. In this context I thought he was fair. (I went back and listened to it for the 3rd time)
Oh I think it’s good that you posted that link. I think it sparks interesting thought and conversation. But you know I have to counter balance something when all the information isn’t being presented. If someone watches that Mark Driscoll video and has never read anything by Rob Bell, Brian Mclaren, or Tony Jones, they come away thinking these men doubt Jesus’ divinity and his death on the cross, that irresponsible on Driscoll’s part, not yours. :) Since Brian McLaren is one of my favorite authors and I admire Rob Bell, how could I not defend them? :) The video definitely opens up an interesting conversation about where we see ourselves in our faith.
And while I disagree with Driscoll’s analysis, I can still play. :)
I would put myself in lane four, but only because I know the men listed in that group do not go so far to raise doubts on the personhood of Christ and all that jazz. :)
I definitely wrestle with a lot of issues that could be considered “mainstays” that go beyond just making church more “relevant.” I totally question some of our understandings concerning the bible: as it pertains to application, intent, women’s roles, church hierarchy, etc. etc. I am not one of those people that can go, “Oh God told the Israelites to commit genocide, allowed rapists to marry their victims, and blessed those who smashed babies’ heads into rocks, but its all ok because they bible said so.” So, in that sense, I would put myself in lane four.
Oh the Rob Bell thing was not so much about actually asserting that Jesus had an earthly father, but was an example in a larger point about a “theology of bricks,” relying more on our interpretation of particular scriptures, that if proved wrong, destroys our entire faith. Notice I said, if the INTERPRETATION is proved wrong, not the actual scripture....
Anyway, I love ya Cat!
I read Velvet Elvis and I had a problem with this very point.
If Jesus had an earthly father, then everything we believe as Christians is a hoax, Tia. If that brick gets taken out, the whole thing goes down. Salvation isn't coming to us from a regular guy who managed not to sin. It is coming to us through God's personal sacrifice. Interpretation has nothing to do with it. From whence cometh the arrogance to question the foundational tennents of the faith passed down from generation to generation? I understood Bell's point, but He picked the wrong brick to pick on. You don't pull foundational bricks, you pull the ones instituted by religion.
The thing is, do we trust God to preserve His word to us or do we apply our own PC reasoning and try to make things look and feel the way we think they should? I love reformers for their humilty before God and their perception of His sovereignty. I'm not entirely on board the TULIP train, but the more I study the Bible (not McLaren or Piper or Zacharias) the more I understand the reformed perspective. And no, I am not going to a reformed church:):):).
If I had to choose, I'd go with Lane 3. That's where I most identify.
While Tia and I part company on a lot of issues, I have to say that I recently listened to an ENTIRE Mark Driscoll sermon and was so perturbed, I posted about it today. There was a bit too much name calling for my taste, and I'm far from being a thin skinned Christian!
Lane 3 for me
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